David Fitch sends me love but feels misunderstood.
Here’s my attempt to understand him better.
How a Leader Enters a Context
David Fitch writes that he agrees with almost everything I say, but feels that I missed his main point.
I would like to understand him, and his main point, better.
David offers three clues that demonstrate that I don’t get his point about church planting. I want to extend to him the benefit of the doubt because I can be slow. But, in my experience, when you have some one that takes an “either/or” position, it seems that you have to either “agree” or “you don’t get it”.
Since David’s article is about why I, Alex McManus, just don’t get it, I want to give myself every opportunity to understand things and him. So, I want to address each of the clues in two short posts rather than one long one. This makes for easier reading.
A Huge and Positive Footprint
David’s first clue that I just don’t feel him is my idea that a new church can make “A huge and positive footprint” when they launch. I gave K2 the Church as an example.
The main point David discusses here: How to enter a context.
David sees entering a context with a “big footprint” as “typical” of “mega church ways” and believes it “smacks” both of “taking up a power position in a context” and of “colonialist mission”.
Wow. All I said was they did something “positive”…oh yes, and “huge”. I didn’t say this to dismiss David’s strategy. I offered it as another good deed in addition to his ideas. I was adding a both/and option to his either/or framework.
But David proposes that we enter a context “meekly, humbly, vulnerably,…(and) incarnationally”.
Everyone tip toe around and say, “Sssshhhhhh.”
David goes on to say that the fact that the big footprint “approach is acceptable” to me “reveals” to him why I “don’t see the need for a new church planting strategy.”
Really? Now we’ve stuck a toe across the line.
Where to begin? I feel like a mosquito in a nudist colony.
Revelation vs Just Reading
I want to tread lightly because David feels that his knowledge about how I think was “revealed” to him. But I would say, respectfully, that what was revealed to David about me here is 100% false. David is correct to write that I don’t see the need for “a” new strategy. But this misleads…The truth is that I see a need for many, many new strategies.
This is why I wrote about David’s article — I think his approach limits and reduces amazing possibilities of leaders of differing capacity, especially high-impact, entrepreneurial leaders.
I am not sure why this false information about me was revealed to David. In both concept and practice I have participated in a wide variety of church planting “strategies”.
And —this is key here — nothing…no thing…in my writings either with regard to David’s article or other wise indicates that I don’t see a need for new church planting strategies.
In fact, I embrace new strategies, even the one David proposed. I also embrace high-impact, risk-filled, adventurous attempts for the gospel.
See my articles:
Twin Trajectories: Mega Church and Home Church Networks and why we need them both — Part 1
Twin Trajectories: Mega Church and Home Church Networks and why we need them both — Part 2
In that sense, David, it’s not that I don’t see a need for “a” new strategy. It’s that I invite you to be open to not only your model and strategy but to the models and strategies of others too. It’s a big world and there’s room for a lot of new ways.
I think I’ll understand you better, if you explain to me how you can write — not from a revelation of any sort but from the two articles that I have written in response to yours here and here – that I don’t see a need for new church planting strategies. Until then, I have to agree with you David, I don’t get you, but I’m trying. Much love, though.
Now, let’s move on to the issue of how to enter a context.
Either/Or Again
Here’s the situation as David sees it.
EITHER we enter a context meekly, humbly, vulnerably…incarnationally
OR we enter smacking of Colonialist mission –what?– “mega church ways” –again, what?– and taking up power positions because we are so big and mighty.
OK, Either meek and mild, like David proposes.
OR, imposing ourselves on others, pushing people around, and pegging them into a program (“colonialist mission” and “mega church ways”?) like David says I propose.
Again, we’re not getting a lot of wiggle room from David. In his either/or framework (again), you either got to be flaccid or erect, black or white.
But the either/or framework David offers is an unbalanced seesaw made up of his point of view on the one side and an exaggerated, unbalanced view on the other. If I didn’t know better, I’d say Fitch is setting up a point of view that NO ONE believes and then beating it up and addressing me as if I believed it.
This returns to why I commented on Fitch’s argument to begin with. His original proposal was built on this kind of either/or framework and this is what I disagreed with. Here is the original premise: “A look at whether churches should expand through a missionary model rather than relying on professional entrepreneurial pastors to plant churches.”Do you see it? Either missionary model or professional entrepreneurial pastors. My response to this is here.
And now, again, David gives another either/or framework of dubious seriousness.
I propose a real either/or framework:
EITHER Meek and Mild as David proposes
OR Big and Bold as David opposes
OR Both as I propose.
The Main Point
David can try to explain his main point. I will explain mine.
Creating false either/or frameworks about models keeps us from looking at the main issues at stake. For example, leadership.
Leaders are different. (Think of the leaders whose causes went supernova — The Mega church Pastors (Warren, Hybels, etc) Paul Yonngi Cho, Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, Jesus, Mohammad, Aung San Sui Chi, Martin Luther King, Luther.)
Their styles vary.
Their contexts vary.
Their audiences respond differently.
The ways their passions spread vary.
It’s not healthy to try and fit everyone into one template…into “a” new strategy. In reaction to one church model that has fallen into disfavor, I think that’s what David may be trying to do. At least, that’s what I understood through David’s article, “STOP FUNDING CHURCH PLANTS and start funding missionaries. ” My own point of view, that I stated in my article, is that we are beyond a one-model-fits-all world.
In any case, leaders don’t enter a context as a strategy but as people with a strategy. They can drop the strategy–yours or mine. Who they are as people in relationship to the context determines which of many strategies will be effective. Some of these leaders…dare I say it …will have greater capacity, gifting, etc and may go supernova. They will make a huge and positive footprint.
I say, nice.
David says, Shhhhh.
For David, it seems, it’s about models. For me, it’s more primal than this. It is about humanity and the diversity of charisms and capacities given to leaders, the numerous ways human respond to them, and the variety of ways human community can structure itself.
Some people are designed to make a huge and positive impact within a context. Others come in quietly. I don’t want any system or ideology that tries to limit or restrict these kind of leaders to act for the kingdom using their gifts, talents, ambitions, and temperaments open to full throttle. When a system of thought limits the possibilities, suppresses the amazing, hammers down the nails that stand above the rest, it needs to be challenged.
Last Thing
When did making a “positive” and “huge” impact for the Kingdom impact become wrong?
Before you answer, take it in — “positive”.
I would think that when and if this ever happens, we would celebrate.
When did “positive” become wrong?
I notice that this didn’t seem to phase David.
He seem so against this attributing to it code words impregnated with negative feelings– “colonialist mission”, “mega church ways” and so on — that even with the possibility that it could be “positive” David didn’t even blink.
Did it not matter that it was “positive” because it was “huge”?
Is it intolerable that a team of Christ followers –whether colonialists or indigenous — would “bless” in the best of ways a large number of people at one time? Scandalous.
Could it be that we become so enamored with our ideologies –or so frustrated with ineffective ones –that we lose sight of basic things?
It is OK for something really good like the gospel of the kingdom to enter a context and make waves, to spread like wild fire, go to supernova. I also think that your proposal to go in quietly, vulnerably, delicately is also worth doing…often necessary. I think its OK for people whose intent it is to announce the kingdom in a community to do so either way, according to the spirit that has been given to them, and the dictates of the contexts they enter.
In this case, both/and trumps either/or. Some readers may misunderstand me to mean BOTH Missional AND Mega Church or Attractional. They would be wrong. This both/and means BOTH leaders with stealth, subverive gifts, quiet talents, and quieter dispositions AND leaders with explosive, disruptive, high impact energy. This is primal. Ways to enter a context are as diverse as are the leaders that enter them.
My thoughts on the next two “clues” that reveal to David that I just don’t get him are on the way…
All the best,
Alex
Reclaiming the Mission » Me and Alex McManus Take 2: Here’s an “Both/And” I Can Live With!
[...] to a recent post of mine (in which I responded to him) while I was out of the country last week. In his post, Alex disagrees with (among other things) my assessment of the “big and positive footprint” [...]
August 18, 2011Luke
I’m uncomfortable with the both/and you set up in contrast to the Both/And David does.
You seem to imply that the more gifted leaders will necessarily be drawn toward the “entrepreneurial” (by which it seems you mean big). It sounds like, correct me if I’m wrong, but it sounds like you are suggesting that missionaries (using David’s def.) will be low impact because they are not, by definition, high impact leaders.
You propose (tongue and cheek) “Ether Meek and Mild, or Big and Bold.”
And you say,
“In fact, I embrace new strategies, even the one David proposed. I also embrace high-impact, risk-filled, adventurous attempts for the gospel.”
I find this to be an extremely dangerous, and completely unfair dichotomy. When did moving into a context humbly, preaching the gospel in a post-Christian age, and surrounding yourself, not with other Christians, but with sinners, become risk-averse or lacking in adventurous entrepreneurial (can we say apostolic instead) drive?
When the gospel is planted it is a seed. It seems that you would prefer we only transplant a 200 year old sequoia. Not that these old, developed trees don’t provide a haven for the birds of the air, but they are, by definition, not seeds.
August 18, 2011admin
Luke, Thank you for your comment. I don’t imply that “more” gifted leaders will be drawn toward the entrepreneurial. I explicitly argue that entrepreneurially gifted leaders will tend toward the entrepreneurial. I suggest that missionaries can be of both (and more) varieties. That’s my point.
The issue is not mega-church vs missional community but leaders with differing gift sets. One is more rare –the catalytic entrepreneur- but that doesn’t make them less needed.
You ask: “When did moving into a context humbly, preaching the gospel in a post-Christian age, and surrounding yourself, not with other Christians, but with sinners, become risk-averse or lacking in adventurous entrepreneurial (can we say apostolic instead) drive?”
I answer: Never.
And, nowhere in my writing can you find anything that implies anything other than “never”.
Again, your analogy with the Sequoia makes my point.
The proper analogy Is:
Many are planting seed and their work yields a fruitful olive tree. A few plant a seed and it yields a sequoia.
Once you eliminate the mega-church or any other developed structure from your mind, then you can allow the different ways that leaders are gifted to yield on the field according to the gifts that have been given them. Put one leader on the field and works for years and produces a small house church. Beautiful. Put another leader on the same field and he produces hundreds of teams with amazing public manifestations. Again, beautiful.
Why should we handicap the leader with capacity to go supernova just because of some Christendom bias against Christendom forms — like Mega-churches or missional communities?
Hoping to make a huge impact has nothing to do with transplanting a full grown tree. Nothing. It has everything to do with the ability to humbly recognize that we are differently gifted.
Thanks so much for you input. I am deeply grateful for your interest in the Kingdom and the gospel.
August 18, 2011Luke
Thanks for your response Alex.
I have no issue at all with what you have said about the necessity of a multiplicity of leaders, or to release those leaders to work in accord with their gifting.
The tension I’m feeling here is related to what seems to be an underlying idea that “supernova” in kingdom terms means mega-church style big. I will say that I’m actually not a huge proponent of the house church per se. What I am a big fan of and what my heart yearns for is discipleship multiplication. That’s the version of big I think we should be concerned about, everything else muddies the waters.
I’m suggesting that supernova leaders might catalyze movements that are more in line with this “missionary” model than with the “mega-church” model.
I suspect we agree on that point, but the dichotomy you set up between “meek and mild” and “big and bold” would suggest otherwise.
Apostolic (or entrepreneurial if you prefer, though I don’t like all the implications of the term) leaders may be those that you never hear about because they catalyzed an underground movement under an authoritarian regime.
The point I think David is making, he can correct me if I’m off, and I think it’s a good point, is that our context may increasingly call for these apostolic/entrepreneurial/high-impact/supernova/bold/seed planting sorts of leaders to walk the path of a missionary.
The distinguishing mark of the sorts of leaders you are high-lighting seems to me to be at least two-fold:
1) They plant rather than transplant and
2) They multiply disciples that multiply disciples
I think I’m just suspicious that those two things are genuinely at the core of mega-church ministry. I’m open to being wrong.
Thanks for being willing to engage with me! May God work power through all this talk.
August 18, 2011alex
Luke, Exactly. I think that both you and David bring forward into the conversation a mindset that is dominated by Christendom models like the Mega-church. So in your (plural) attempt to battle the model, you throw the giftings of entrepreneurial, high-impact leaders under the bus effectively throwing the baby out with the bath water.
For example you write here: “I’m suggesting that supernova leaders might catalyze movements that are more in line with this “missionary” model than with the “mega-church” model.”
I suggest we leave both of these Christendom era paradigms –i.e. “missionary” and “mega-church”– behind and look at more primal things. In the first place Missionary model and mega-church are not “likes” the are “unlikes”. Missionary describes a process and “mega-church” describes an outcome. The question for you is, can a missionary walking the missionary path end up with a mega-church?
I say, yes, yeah, and nice.
Those who push a “missionary model” say, sshhh.
The dichotomy of “meek and mild” and “bold and big” were an extraction of David’s either/or boiled down to its most basic form in order to make my point. My point here was these two approaches that are framed in an “either/or” way are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
Luke, you write: “The point I think David is making, he can correct me if I’m off, and I think it’s a good point, is that our context may increasingly call for these apostolic/entrepreneurial/high-impact/supernova/bold/seed planting sorts of leaders to walk the path of a missionary.”
I disagree with you both here. I think everyone must always walk the “path of the missionary” everywhere on earth and beyond. And, because our context is also a mission field, I think we should pray for bold apostolic leaders to stand up and disrupt culture for the gospel by going super nova–like Acts 2 and like Korea and like China.
And last, you write:
“1) They plant rather than transplant and
2) They multiply disciples that multiply disciples
I think I’m just suspicious that those two things are genuinely at the core of mega-church ministry. ”
Expand your suspicion. Are these two things genuinely at the core of any church regardless of structure?
I know a lot of faithful people from all kinds of churches. But most of the mind-bending disciples I personally know are either in (or have been a part of) dynamic-churches (many of who are mega) or they are movement leaders.
But the challenge of discipleship isn’t just a mega-church challenge. It is a challenge across the board.
Again, thanks.
August 19, 2011Luke
Thanks for responding again Alex.
I don’t think I’m throwing the giftings of high-impact entrepreneurial leaders under the bus or throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I’m wanting to do exactly what you suggest, to boil the conversation down to “primal” things. So for a moment let’s leave behind the either/or of what you are suggesting are two different versions of the same Christendom mindset, which I think is probably true much of the time.
Let’s take Acts 2 and China, I don’t know enough about Korea to speak to it. Because if these are what supernova means, and reflect the “primal” things you would like to focus on, than I’m with you 100%.
The first and primary “primal” aspect that is born-out by these examples is that the work is God’s. All of us, especially high-impact entrepreneurial leaders with tons of talents and giftings, do well to remember this.
Act’s 2 is born out of a humble and flawed individual empowered by the Holy Spirit, an apostle (a much preferred concept for me over entrepreneurial, because the entrepreneurial concept is too focused on the work and talent of the leader and not enough on their “sentness” by God to lay the foundation of Christ. It’s a business term that has too much baggage, not that apostle doesn’t
). In this case, the “primal” aspect is not that Peter was particularly “mind-bending” but that the Holy Spirit always is. This is shown clearly both in Acts 3 and Acts 14, when Peter and John and Paul and Barnabas respectively are extremely disturbed by the peoples attempts to exalt their personal “piety or power.”
China is a fantastic example of something going “supernova” as soon our Christendom hands came off the wheel. Curtain goes down, western missionaries get kicked out, and God sparks a still continuing “supernova.”
This is the core of my concern. And, as you have pointed out, it is a concern that transcends any and every model.
I feel this tension in “missionary model” minded circles as well. Strategies, entrepreneurship, sociology, models, models and more models. I said, and I say, that I long for “supernova” type expansion of the church. That is, new disciples who then make disciple’s that make new disciples. And in this regard, my suspicion is sufficiently expanded.
At the end of the day, I’m concerned that a focus on high-impact entrepreneurial leaders inclines toward making much of the talent and gifting of a man/men. I simply think we should be more disturbed by that than we are. And I am not saying that the same tendency doesn’t exist the other direction. So maybe I’m searching for the third way in this both/and discussion.
What is “primal” for you?
Thanks again Alex.
August 19, 2011